The crazy cycle can lead to suicide or walking away from God entirely. @ Daisy: This is a false dichotomy. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. It is not love to push Calvin. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. What you believe is irrelevant. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. Systematic theology books are plentiful. . They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. I gotta second numos motion. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. J. Vernon McGee 19. In SGM, most of us were pretty demure. To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. That is biblical. Which also prove that God does not fit into our nice, neat packages. As for being Lutheran, I think people get this confused sometimes as if all Lutherans follow everything Luther wrote. and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. A Word to My Calvinist Friends. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. circles, and here are the things that were primary messages: 1) God predestines some for salvation, and some for hell. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Thank you, Deb. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. But you are right. Gordon Fee 30. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. Anywaythats fine. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. @ Steve D: I dont want to do either of those things, and I dont want to argue about it any more. Thousands of contemporary Calvinists cut their theological teeth on the teachings of Sproul and MacArthur and their respective ministries, Ligonier and Grace to You . @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. Addressing what many evangelical Christians are concerned about todayso-called "new Calvinism," a movement embraced by a generation labeled as "young, restless, Reformed" Against Calvinism is the only book of its kind to offer objections from a non-Calvinist perspective to the current wave of Calvinism among Christian youth. And our needs are met by taking ground and accomplishing; because we were robbed of our inheritance and starved of purpose and significance. I have to admit-this made me giggle. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Wade is one of the most loving pastors that we have ever had the joy to meet. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. Thanks for posting it. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? All are welcome to participate. If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. We have a question for you? People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. I am neither. I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. Put more simply, I view others as if I were an Arminian and myself as if I were a Calvinist. This item can do it all and do it all the better than the rest. This was no emotional, short term thing. Old Pollyannasdie hard. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. In my mind its all about power. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. But I can tell you this, there are times in the past where I would have characterized the tone of TWW as anti-Calvinist. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other Wow-at least you got the Christian part. EGOTISM. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. (My experience, from childhood on.). I can see why many walk away . Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. Many of us come from heavy Calvinist backgrounds, have studied the confessions and the institutes, and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. Why did I smile? 1 Cor. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. I think that is biblical. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. Thanks for the clarification. This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? We will briefly survey these five points of disagreement and . So thankful to be free, now. Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. A person can be a conservative Christian without being Reformed or believing in Calvinism. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. Excellent work! Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! It contains a list of 16 "behaviors" to look for when seeking to smoke out Calvinistic pastors. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. (I mean, Star Trek?). We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? I had no intention of saying that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. I intended to contrast believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their reading of Scripture, and believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their own counsel, on what they *feel* is true. @ Junkster: You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. Maybe I need to learn how to live with it better. @ Jeff S: John Piper (46:41) "This is the one you're all waiting for," Dever quips. This really frustrates me a lot. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. Sort of like reading Cliff Notes instead of the book. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. Learning as we go, making mistakes but so what, & learning from them. I just ordered the book! And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. Theyre like rival sects of Muslims in Iraq & Syria. Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. . Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). What I mean is doctrinally I cant find the distinction. Just an observation. There is a new evangelism taking place. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? The first document is in the form of a memo and is entitled, "Reformed Red Flags.". . Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. 1) That article. I was aware of Reformed theology and had friends in each of those churches who tipped that way. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. There is a prominent member in our church who is also in our study group. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. I have not had that experience. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! CALVIN! So how does it work that God is in control of every molecule without circumventing the free will of man? by allowing them). If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. Rank No. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. Besides the fact that I believe that the Bible says that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (and I hope to get into details about that later), the idea that suffering is *meaningless* is worse to me than the idea of God, as you put it well, [orchestrating] even the specific tragedies of life. If its within Gods orchestration, I can be assured that there is a reason for them. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning.
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